S1 E6 Agents of Unity

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II:
Humility plays a significant role in helping people. It's a significant role in communicating with people. It's a significant role in trying to reach resolve, or take a risk or just be rational. And we've lost that as the church in our attempt to create an identity that we cannot sustain. I don't know you guys understand this or not, but you need people more than you need a building.

Kate White:
Welcome to the Center for Congregations Podcast. This is a conversation for anyone invested in sustaining and strengthening their faith communities. The Center for Congregations is an Indiana non-profit that exists because we believe that the work of your congregation is essential. Our mission is to strengthen your congregation, helping you find the right information or expertise for your congregation's needs. We're able to do this work because of the generosity of the Lilly Endowment.

Matt Burke:
All right, welcome back to the Center for Congregations Podcast. This is Matt Burke, I'm the education director and the Northeast director in the Fort Wayne office.

Ben Tapper:
And I'm Ben Tapper. I'm an associate for resource consulting here in our Indianapolis office.

Matt Burke:
And this week's interview is with Bishop Tavis Grant II, and we'll dive into that here in just a little bit, but kind of the topic of today is how has our faith worked out in society and community around us? That was kind of a major topic of conversation during the interview. And, Ben what are some of your thoughts on that? Where are you seeing that idea landing in your work?

Ben Tapper:
One of the examples that comes to mind for me is a congregation, I believe it's either in Elkhart or South Bend that used our Connect Through Tech grants to expand the range of their Wi-Fi capability. And the primary reason for doing that for them was to ensure that community members could come to their building basically and have access to free Wi-Fi because they recognize that's a deep need for members of their community. And so this congregation said, "Hey, we have access to these funds. We're going to use them to serve the community, really to no benefit to ourselves outside of the fact that we believe this is part of our mission and vision of what it means to share our faith." And that to me is practical and brilliant.

Matt Burke:
Yeah. And that's something that's been a growth area that we've seen in the last, oh, I don't know, maybe five, six years that congregations are continuing to come to us increasingly thinking about how does our congregation impact the community around us, as well as those who are attending? In fact, we launched an entire major grant initiative called the Community Ministry Grant Initiative several years ago. And the whole idea behind that was helping congregations learn how to do mutual ministry for the people in their area.

Ben Tapper:
And I think, I don't know if this is fortunately or unfortunately, but given the global pandemic, given the societal unrest that we're experiencing, the economic impact of everything, there are some pretty serious immediate needs that a lot of families and a lot of communities are having. And as a result, I think we're seeing congregations recognize that and begin to place those physical and immediate needs at the forefront of what it means to minister rather than secondary or tertiary.

Matt Burke:
Yeah. And I think that's going to be one of the interesting things to listen for in this interview is just his conversation around... Of course we need to have beliefs and it's clear as he moves through the conversation, he has very specific and deep faith commitments, but those faith commitments don't create barriers, but rather inform and encourage him and his congregation to step out into the community around them, which I found that really refreshing.

Ben Tapper:
Yeah. And that leads me to something we were talking about offline that we probably should have done much earlier, but we just didn't. And this to name that this podcast, as well as the entire Center for Congregations is rooted in a foundation of theological hospitality and that's going to come up in the interview, but it's also important for us to name upfront, because that means that we are not here to espouse any theological framework or viewpoint. It means that we're here to hold space for the viewpoints that our guests are bringing and for the viewpoints that may connect with our listeners. And that's really what we're here to do.

Matt Burke:
Yeah. We're firm believers that every congregation provides its own unique place and own unique value to the community around it. And so it's definitely not our job to sit back and judge any kind of specific belief spectrum. And in fact, we welcome different perspectives because we believe we can learn from them. And one of the hopes is that this podcast can be a safe space where people can come and listen to opinions, thoughts, and ideas that are different from theirs without feeling like you're trying to be persuaded into something, but just an opportunity to interact with those thoughts and ideas, and just understand people who may be sitting on the other side of a theological issue, a political issue, a societal issue, and at least understand that they potentially have really good reasons for that. You may not agree with those reasons and that's fine, but there's no harm in listening to it and helping it sharpen your thinking and sharpen how you interact with the world.

Ben Tapper:
And maybe just as important is the fact that I think there are going to be some episodes that resonate more deeply with D because you're more in line with the D interviewees theological framework and there'll be others that don't resonate as deeply. And that's okay. But I think there are important nuggets that you can take away from each interview from each guest, from each perspective, and then apply to your congregation or to your own personal life. And that's important to note and a good reason to continue listening, I think.

Matt Burke (05:30):
All right. So let's get to our interview with Bishop Tavis Grant II.

Ben Tapper (05:54):
This week, my colleague, Matt Burke and I are joined by a senior pastor of the Greater First Baptist Church in East Chicago, Indiana, Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II. Bishop Grant is in his 25th year of ministry, serving as the senior pastor of that congregation. And he is also very actively involved in his community as well as doing justice work in Chicago. Bishop Grant has been a lifelong supporter of Reverend Jesse Jackson in Chicago and is currently running his special field operations. So he's got a lot of work on the ground, plenty of experience in ministry, and we are excited for him to bring the wide breadth of his expertise into this episode with us today. So without further ado, Bishop Grant, thank you so much for joining us today.

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (06:34):
Well, thank you. I count it a privilege and a pleasure, and this is a tremendous opportunity. Let's make the best of it.

Ben Tapper (06:41):
Absolutely. So with that, we'll jump right in. As we spoke before the interview, the main area that we want to focus on is this idea of what it means to speak truth to power in love while also holding space for whomever might be grieving after the election? We've got a historic election that is coming up. By the time people listen to this episode, we may or may not know the results of that election, depending upon how long the process takes. And so, as a minister yourself, as someone actively involved in the community that works with people day in and day out, how have you framed the challenge of speaking the truth and love while recognizing that the people that hear your words may be coming from very different places?

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (07:17):
I think the church plays a significant role and faith leaders play an important role and have a critical responsibility in times like these. This election is filled with polarizing ideologies, opposing thoughts and individuals that are polar opposites, and the people in the middle oftentimes are the victims and casualties of an era that we have not seen perhaps in 40 years, we've somewhere between civil unrest and a civil war. The unprecedented nature of people in protests that have unfortunately turn to looting and rioting, coupled with people who are armed. The most recent event in Kenosha, Wisconsin with Kyle Rittenhouse, it really is alarming in a lot of ways that democracy is under attack or the constitution is under attack and civility. We lost all means of being able to even conduct conversation or discussion or even debate without there being heightened tensions. And we, as a church have been called to be... There's something in the Bible, I think says something about blessed are the peacemakers, and we have a moral and biblical obligation to speak truth to power and not to fix the blame but be problem fixers.

Ben Tapper (08:38):
I love that framework, that orientation thinking of ourselves as peacemakers regardless of your spiritual context. So what does it mean for you as you think about your specific community to not fix the blame, but to be problem fixers?

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (08:51):
Well, I grew up in what we call in the African American community on the [inaudible 00:08:55]. I grew up in the projects and the projects did not grow up in me. And so my background and how I've been able to matriculate, I would not have been able to do it, had it not been for the introduction of Jesus Christ into my life at a very young age. And I saw the gospel as a means. I saw the Bible as a means. I saw ministry as a means of getting me out of poverty, getting me out of the ghetto, getting me out of crime-riddled community. And I saw the transformative nature of the word of God and I carry that with me every day. I believe that we say it all the time in the church, I do believe Jesus is the way. So I believe it more fundamentally in terms of being able to not only transform the individual, he can transform the community, he can transform the family and this transformative aspect of the gospel is in jeopardy right now.

I don't believe that the church has facilitator's proper role and being communicators of the gospel, or being true evangelists in terms of setting ourselves aside from fundamentals of popular politics. Today, over 800,000 people are first time individuals who file for unemployment. There are 26 million people who are receiving benefits. Another 30 million have lost their benefits. And there's a stalemate in Washington on getting the very basics to people who have never been. I guess one of the ironies of my life, I've been at the bottom. If I hit the bottom, I have a skill set that can get me off the bottom. There are millions of Americans who have never missed a meal. They've never missed a check, who have never been without insurance, who never had to wonder where rent payment or mortgage payment or car payment or never been unemployed. And I so desperately appeal to our base to get back to the fundamentals because I really believe that this is an hour where when things are at their worst, God is at his best.

Matt Burke (11:06):
When you talk about getting back to the base, what is it that congregations are doing or being right now that you feel like is such a distraction?

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (11:13):
Well, I think the weaponizing, for example, the weaponizing of COVID-19. COVID-19 is real. And it is the most indiscriminate agent we've had perhaps since 9/11. Can you imagine if, for example, the debate about who did the most and who could have been first and who could have done it better? Can you imagine if all of the responsible leaders had have dealt with COVID-19 like we dealt with terrorism, like we did with nine 11? There's not an airport in the world, and prior to the pandemic, I was blessed to travel anywhere. I've been around the world several times and have done mission work in Africa, other places. But in Ghana, Africa, you have to go through security. In Jackson, Mississippi, you have to go through security. In Los Angeles. You have to go through security. The smallest of airports in the world, you have to go through a security check because everyone bought into the fact that there is a group of people who are trying to kill everybody. That's COVID-19.

We've not had a meeting at the UN over COVID-19. We've not had a G-7 meeting over COVID-19. We've not had a global summit anywhere as relates to COVID-19. And yet the church has a moral responsibility to feed the hungry, to minister to the imprisoned, to clothe the naked, to take the gospel to the four corners of the world. That's not politics, that's Bible. And we have a fundamental responsibility in times like these, a light that sit on a hill cannot be here. And our light to some extent is under that bushel that Jesus tells about that parable in terms of us falling prey to the cultural norms of weaponizing our doctrine, of polarizing our congregations.

Recently, I'm a victim of the circumstance. I had to go on Facebook and use their market to buy an exercise machine. I went to a community and it was a white family. And so you type in your name. And so I typed in Bishop Grant. So when I got to the house, it was a white family, and my wife and I are masked up and they're not. And they say, "My son was wondering if Bishop Jakes was coming to our house because your name is Bishop Grant." And it was as if we were from two different planets. My wife and I, my nephew and I are wearing mask, of course, African American, none of them are wearing mask. That's how great the divide is. And we just so happened to be believers. That family is very active in their church. And just in the moment we found that out, but that is what is happening to the church.

Ben Tapper (14:03):
I think our listeners are dying to know, did you end up getting the bike or what happened?

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (14:06):
I got it and I said to my wife, "This is a blaring example of how far apart, we are the body. And when you look on popular Christian television and popular Christian radio, this divide goes beyond race, has become dogma, has become doctrine and it may be irreversible.

Matt Burke (14:30):
Yeah, it's interesting, because I've heard some pastors talk recently about how in the past it seemed that congregations were a bit more homogenous in nature when it came to politics or cultural or societal views. But in the last six months to a year, those divides have been creeping in really to almost every congregation and one pastor talking about how he made the decision to not meet in person for a period of time. And in the same day, got an angry message that I can't believe you'd be thinking about meeting in person at all. And another angry message saying, "Why aren't we meeting in person next week?" And so the division just seems to be creeping in deeper and deeper. And how do we reclaim, how do we recover the unity that we're supposed to have in our faith traditions?

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (15:18):
I believe there must be a determined, intentional spirit-driven motivation and initiative. I am determined to come out of this still part of the body. And that's going to be like juggling chainsaws with some people, because we have made things... We've become, unfortunately like the Pharisees and the Sadducees in biblical times. The divides are just that great that we have taken ideologies, we've taken philosophies that have nothing to do with the fundamentals of our Christian beliefs according to the Bible and the whole idea that we would see meeting in person as a fundamental of faith. And if you don't do it, it's seen as if you have less faith than others.

Matt Burke (16:06):
Yeah. That's such an interesting point that you make that rather than focusing on the idea of redemption, we look at those who believe the opposite of us and we ridicule them, belittle them, assume that they're mentally inferior or incompetent, as opposed to... From the Christian tradition, we believe that all people can be reconciled and can be brought back to a place where they are redeemed in the eyes of God, in the eyes of man. And somehow we've lost that narrative that we assume if someone believes differently than we are, they are beyond the pale and almost forever lost as the way we look at it.

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (16:42):
And the gulf and the divide, whether it be on the issue of race, on the issue of poverty, on the issue that is very much akin to human rights, not just civil rights, but human rights and being able to step to the forefront and offer the most effective means of transforming any person or any culture is in the word of God via ministry and church and the life of Christ. I won't back up on that. I had an opportunity sometime ago to meet with a very charismatic and very controversial individual [inaudible 00:17:20]. He heads up several million African Americans ascribed to what he believes in. And some of my colleagues wanted to know, "Well, why won't you go?" I said, "Because I'm not trying to convert him and I'm not going to let him convert me. I'm very clear on what I believe. I'm not going to get in a combative relationship or circumstance with him and his believers." And out of that became a mutual respect. We've lost that capability.

Ben Tapper (17:50):
Let me throw a scenario at you, Bishop. So I recently graduated from seminary here in Indianapolis. And before I took this job, I worked at a local congregation. And so if I were to come to you as a recent seminary grad, having to preach the Sunday after the election, knowing that I'm speaking to an audience that has people that may have voted for Biden, may have voted for Trump, may have not voted at all. And I say to you, "Bishop Grant, my faith is rooted in the variation theology. I know what I believe. I also know I've got to offer a word for all these people." What tone do I set? How would you respond to me?

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (18:27):
We must become agents of unity. COVID-19 is not going away on November four. Poverty is not going away on November four. Global terrorism is not going to go away on November four. Economic markets will not have recovered by November four. This week alone, nearly a quarter of a million of people have either been furloughed laid, off or lost their jobs altogether. The church is supposed to be the place where those kinds of people come and we're supposed to without discrimination and without delay provide them with something called ministry. We have a critical responsibility. We're paramedics, we're farming. We're the first responders. We can't go in and say, "Well, I'm sorry I can't save you because had you not been smoking in bed, you wouldn't be on fire, or if [inaudible 00:19:21] smoke detectors, the house wouldn't be on fire. If you had homeowner's insurance, you wouldn't have lost everything."

We are God's first responders. And we've got to answer the call to bring in this nation into a sense of oneness. And it's going to require us to embrace some people that we're not so comfortable with embracing, but guess what? We're not the best of people either. Had he not embraced us, where would we be?

Ben Tapper (19:45):
It's very presumptuous of him. Pretty good, actually. I'm kidding.

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (19:49):
Listen, I'll make you our role model.

Matt Burke (19:54):
What a powerful metaphor. Thank you so much for sharing that. That we're the first responders. Because I think if I'm hearing you right, we need to get our focus off of the things that divide us and the ways that we think we're right about our culture and say, "Look, there are people in the world who are hurting. There are people in the world who have need and our job number one, is not to interrogate them about how they got there or what they think about things, but to reach out and to support them, to bring them back into health and back into flourishing."

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (20:23):
I've had the opportunity recently to organize in Kenosha, in Louisville and Minnesota behind George Floyd, and this misnomer that people have from following mainstream television, that these people are out to take our community apart. I sometimes feel like the church is more anti-church than the people that we claim are anti-church, because we are not the church. We've abandoned those fundamentals. I'm not talking about the dress and the attire, I'm talking about attitude. I'm talking about belief. I'm talking about conviction, because I'm convicted in who I am individually, not institutionally. Individually, I've been able to maintain some rare and perhaps unheard of relationships with people that are not of my religious stuff. But I believe that the life that I've gained in Christ can impact and change anybody if that's the life they want. At the same time, I should not deny them their right to live.

Ben Tapper (21:30):
That resonates deeply with me. I spent a couple of years working part-time as a chaplain here in Downtown Indy and whenever I stepped into a hospital room, people generally didn't care what specific faith tradition I was a part of, how it was different or similar to theirs. They just wanted someone to listen. They just wanted someone to sometimes pray, sometimes just hold them. It didn't matter, right? I was just there to offer a service to be a representative. And they pretty much received that and accepted that. And so, I'm using my own experience to resonate with what you're saying and talking about we get too caught up on these artificial divisions when really we just need to meet heart to heart. And we're surprised at how many barriers fall away when we're willing to do that.

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (22:09):
Sometime ago I was able to spend the night at the Pacific Garden Mission here in Chicago. It's the largest homeless residential, and it was amazing to them. And first of all, because they don't get to shower, they don't get to clean up. So they let a man about sundown and they're in, ended about sunup and it's several hundred of them. And I'm telling you, this is something else. And I slept where they slept. I ate what they ate. They were amazed. They were like, "You're not going to order a pizza or something. You didn't bring any cup?" I said, "No, I'm going to sleep on the same floor you sleep on. I'm going to asleep on the same..." "For real?" And being humble enough to get on their level, they gave me something I didn't have to take from them called respect.

I [inaudible 00:22:58] reverence, I'm not a deity, but I gave them respect and my humility. We have lost that capability, that transformative capability that is so genuine and authentic to our faith in these polarizing times, where we have now become the very thing we're supposed to change and convert. There's a book that says, "Be humble, stay hungry, be on your hustle." Or some of that nature. And I've taught on it prior to the pandemic. And it was so interesting how so many people had no idea of the power of humility. I mean the actual power of meekness in our culture now, whether it be a person who is gay or lesbian, maybe a person of another race, a person of another culture. Humility plays a significant role in helping people, it's a significant role in communicating with people. It's a significant role in trying to reach resolve, or take a risk or just be rational.

And we lost that as the church in our attempt to create an identity that we cannot sustain. I don't know you guys understand this or not, but you need people more than you need a building. And after the election, we may have more buildings than we have people. And it'd be simply because we've done so much to drive people into corners rather than drive them to the cross or draw them to the cross. That we will have buildings that will open, but we'll have no people in.

Ben Tapper (24:28):
Yeah. And that's a stark reality. And I think, especially in the time of COVID, a lot of faith leaders are coming to grips with the truth that we need people more than we need a building. So I appreciate you naming that. As we conclude here, Bishop Grant, I'm wondering two things. One, for faith leaders that are wanting to continue to edify themselves, build themselves up and grow, are there particular resources that you might recommend either people to follow, books to read, like the one you just recommended, podcasts? Where would you point them to, to get started or to continue to grow and equip themselves for the journey ahead?

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (25:02):
I would encourage them... Recently, we started something called Worship Without Walls, and it was a risk to take our worship services beyond our walls. But not only did we do that, we started something called Bless the Box, where we encourage our members and our congregants and partners and stakeholders in our community to rather than look for all these other agencies and services, go to your cupboard, go to your pantry, go to all these, go to Save A Lot, go to Dollar General and buy $10 worth of non-perishables and bring them and help us create a box that will be a blessing to people. The most significant thing that ever happened to me as a young person during the Christmas time, and my mother was an alcoholic and she suffered from mental illness. She was bipolar. It was a critical time and dark times in my life, my family, right? Because we were living [inaudible 00:25:53] from day to day.

And I never forget this Christmas. I get a knock on a door. And we lived on the second floor of a building in the [inaudible 00:26:01] and I opened the door and there was this big box, turkey, corn bread, all this canned goods. I'll never forget. It was like five minutes ago. And I promise God if he ever bless me, I would take on the mission of blessing others. And so, as I mentioned prior to the podcast, we serve nearly 1,000 people. Yesterday will serve 500 more. Take your church beyond the walls and simply take a risk, take a risk and do something you've never done to get something you've never had and challenge your people. This is a marvelous story in Gideon. Gideon is faced with this crisis. There's something in that story where Gideon challenges his followers to do as he does.

People need leadership today. This is critical premium of leadership, not followship. People don't need somebody who's following somebody. They need someone who is leading them somewhere. And it's so very vital for you as a leader of a congregation, of a ministry, of a group, of an initiative to take the risk as challenging as these times are to lead your people into places, into initiatives that you may not be comfortable with. The challenge has to be, that somebody has got the boat and find out what it's like to walk on the water even if I almost drowned in the process. Somebody has got to be willing to go out in the crowd. Can you imagine going out of the crowd and say, "Excuse me, do you have some bread? Do you have some fish? Do you have some crackers. Do you have a biscuit?" And it's a little boy. And imagine going back to your leader and say, "Well, [inaudible 00:27:44]. There's a bunch of people out there. I tried to tell you to send them home, but no, you won't listen to us."

He takes it and does something with it. The last part is do something with what you have. That any number of churches that are listening to this podcast, are incredibly gifted with space, resources, manpower that are just sitting untapped and dormant and they will follow you. You said we want to open our church and use it for Wi-Fi space for our young people, you will be amazed. If you say we want to go and give out hot meals to seniors in nursing homes who have not had visitation in three to four months, they will go with you. You say, we want to go to the most at-risk area in our community and we want to get away food baskets, you wouldn't believe how many people open up and say, "Hey pastor. Hey leader... Hey leader, I'll help you as a leader if you lead the way."

We got to get out of this mindset that our answers come from the White House or come from the State House. They really come from God's house. And I believe now's the time to take advantage for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty to the pulling down strongholds. And there is no greater time for us to be the church than now.

Ben Tapper (29:06):
Thank you for those words. I didn't even have to ask my last question because you just intuitively knew it and answered it. So I appreciate that. It's an easy interview there.

Matt Burke (29:14):
Bishop, why don't you let people know where they can follow your work or find your information on you if they're so inclined?

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (29:20):
You can go to www.bishoptavisgrant2.org, or you can go to Facebook, Instagram, and or YouTube. So I cannot say enough how I've appreciated this opportunity and [inaudible 00:29:32] and respect what you do. You're doing a great job. Keep up the good work.

Matt Burke (29:37):
Thank you very much, much appreciate it.

Ben Tapper (29:39):
Thank you. And thank you again for taking the time out of your busy schedule to join us. We appreciate you, we appreciate the voice that you use and example that you've set, especially here today for other faith leaders that are going to hear this after the election. So thank you again, Bishop. We appreciate you.

Bishop Tavis Lane Grant II (30:20):
Thank you.

Ben Tapper (30:20):
And now we move to resources. That was a fascinating interview. I really loved Bishop Grant's perspective and I think we've got some good resources that can help solidify and supplement everything that we heard today. So I'll kick us off Matt, then we can jump to you. The first resource that I want to bring is a book, and I know everyone's excited about books, but this is one that is applicable. It's called Ferguson and Faith: Sparking Leadership and Awakening Community. This is a book by Leah Gunning Francis, who is a dean at Christian Theological Seminary here in Indianapolis.

The reason I think this book is applicable is because it's basically a conversation between longtime clergy, especially African American clergy and local activists on the ground in Ferguson, Missouri in the wake of the Michael Brown murder. And so you just get this rich dialogue that is both theological and intensely practical. And you can tell that both sides of the conversation are wrestling with what it means to be doing the work of faith, what it means to be part of a faith community, whether you're in a congregation actively or not, and what it means to tie the work of social justice and justice into one's theological framework more directly? And so I think just for the sake of the dialogue that takes place in the pages of the book, it's a very rich resource for this specific topic. And Matt, what did you have for us today?

Matt Burke (31:41):
Yeah, so the first thing I'd like to bring to the table is a book that was actually written in 2012, but honestly it is very applicable to where we are right now. The book is called Hijacked: Responding to the Partisan Church Divide and it was written by Charles Gutenson and Mike Slaughter. So, co-authors and Dr. Gutenson has done a lot of work for Sojourners is a little bit more on the progressive side of politics. And Mike Slaughter was the pastor of Ginghamsburg United Methodist Church, a mega church in Tipp City, Ohio, that he's more on the conservative side of things, but basically in the book they discuss how faith has taken a back seat in a lot of cases to politics and how that's damaging. And I think in our interview that was illustrated very nicely by Bishop Grant, that we sometimes are looking more to political commitments and policy commitments than we are faith commitments. And this book kind of helps to think about and recover what are your core faith commitments and how does that then inform your politics as opposed to it happening the other way around.

Ben Tapper (32:35):
I can see why that'd be a good fit for this particular topic area.

Matt Burke (32:39):
And one of the things that really encouraged me about Bishop Grant's view on his work is... Clearly he's involved in some aspects of activism and politics, but you could just hear his deep commitment to people and how much his faith informed how he views everyone in a way that he wants to engage with them in order to help them and to serve them. So if I were to make another recommendation here, I would really recommend recovering your sacred texts and getting back to what it is that provides your faith with its energy and with its momentum and trying to just parse that apart from maybe what's going on in society, maybe what's going on in politics and the news, and just recovering for yourself and your church and your community, your congregation, what it is that drives you and allowing that to inform how you move in the world, as opposed to maybe your engagement in the world and who you think you may agree with driving how you read that sacred text.

Ben Tapper (33:37):
Yeah, I co-signed that. One of the things I heard in the interview was an invitation to the main thing of whatever your theological framework and tradition is. For many theological frameworks, part of the main thing is people. And so, yeah, I support everything you say. And in that vein, one of the things that Bishop Grant mentioned near the end of the interview was the idea that at some point in time, you're probably going to make someone uncomfortable, the messages you preach with the way that you move and the way that you minister if you're centering people. And in that spirit, the second resource I want to offer is a webinar entitled How to Preach a Dangerous Sermon, which is based off a book of the same title by Dr. Frank Thomas, who heads up the PhD program at Christian Theological Seminary in African American Preaching and Rhetoric.

The webinar helps you get to the point of delivering a dangerous sermon by walking you through what it means to reconnect with your convictions and to reconnect with your moral imagination. And so for those of you that are wondering how you've returned to your convictions and also share those with your congregation or share them with the broader public, this might be a good resource, especially the initial part of the webinar as it helps you return to the idea of a moral imagination. So I think it could be helpful as you're seeking to do that reimagining and connecting and engaging with people more regularly.

Matt Burke (34:50):
Yeah. Thanks Ben. So it's not only how do we form and shape those things in ourselves, but how do we communicate those to the people under our care and help them also see and understand where we're coming from?

Ben Tapper (35:00):
Absolutely, absolutely. And so, we hope that you've gotten a lot out of this interview itself and that you find these resources helpful, and we want to remind you that you can connect with us in other ways outside of this podcast. We are on Facebook and Instagram at the Center for Congregations, and we share congregational stories and highlights regularly. We share resources regularly. And we also have education events that we host to promote on our social media pages as well. So be sure you find us on social media and follow us there.

Matt Burke (35:27):
Yeah. And the world of resources is just such a vast ocean. It is daunting. And even for us as consultants, we're constantly in the world of resources to find new resources and it's even a little crazy for us. So, having limited time trying to lead your congregation, handle budgets, figure out worship. There's so many aspects of what goes on and we can be someone who helps save you time on that. And that's what we've done with the CRG. So you can go to T-H-E-C-R-G.org and search by all kinds of different tags to find good articles, books, webinars, videos, et cetera. You can reach out to us there in the chat and we can try to help customize a little bit more of what you need and what you're searching for. And then if you're an Indiana congregation, you can reach out to one of our offices. And we will personally do research on your behalf, try to take some of the sting out of that and we do that as a free gift to Indiana congregations. Were funded generously by the Lilly Endowment. So we're just here to serve.

Ben Tapper (36:23):
And finally, we've gotten feedback that people have found this podcast and these episodes helpful and encouraging and insightful. And we love to hear that. So keep the feedback coming. If you have recommendations, you can email us at podcast@centerforcongregations.org. We're rethinking and reimagining additional aspects and layers that we can add to this podcast. And so we'd love your feedback or suggestions. And most importantly, if you're one of those people that finds this resource, this podcast helpful and encouraging and insightful, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. That way you're notified when new episodes come out. And also, even more importantly, to ensure that new listeners can find this podcast and can be connected to the guests that we are highlighting here and showcasing, please leave us a rating and a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. That is the easiest way for the algorithm to ensure that this podcast is pushed out to new listeners that might find it interesting.

So leave us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts so that we can get the messages out, so that we can bring these resources, bring the wealth of knowledge of our presenters to a broader audience.

Matt Burke (37:24):
So we want to thank you for listening. We also want to thank Jayden Lee for editing and producing this podcast, and he gets rid of all the awkward pauses and ridiculous endings to sentences that we do. So thank you, Jayden.

Ben Tapper (37:36):
Yes, thank you, Jayden. And thank you all again for listening. We'll be back next time with another episode and another great interview.