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S1 E7 Exchanging Pews for Strollers

by the Center for Congregations 12/02/2020
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Victoria Sun Esparza joins Ben and Matt to talk about Human Centered Design and applying it in congregations. This process is a way for you to listen well to the needs of your congregation in order to make decisions about goals, strategy and ways of serving those under your care.

 

Resources

Access the resources mentioned in this episode.

Design Kit by IDEO

Dev Explains: What Is Human-Centered Design?

Creative Confidence by David Kelley and Tom Kelley

TedTalk by David Kelley: How To Build Your Creative Confidence

In the Water Designs (Victoria's company)

Show Transcript

Transcript

Victoria Sun Esparza (00:06):
Bias is not something that's necessarily inherently bad. But the reality is there is no amount of work that we can do to rid ourselves 100% of our bias. We each have a very unique upbringing. We each have a different kind of ethnic background. We each have different experiences in our life. We've had different experiences with church and faith. And because of that, we can't ever just read ourselves of that perspective. So part of what's really important is us acknowledging our limitations and being able to say, "I have no idea what it's like to be a parent who works 40 hours a week, has three children at home, and has a spouse that also works full-time, in the midst of COVID." So what we have to be able to say is I don't know what that experience is like, so I'm not going to try to guess. I'm actually just going to go talk to somebody. 

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome to the Center for Congregations Podcast. This is a conversation for anyone invested in sustaining and strengthening their faith communities. The Center for Congregations is an Indiana nonprofit that exists because we believe the work of your congregation is essential. Our mission is to strengthen your congregation, helping you find the right information or expertise for your congregation's needs. We're able to do this work because of the generosity of the Lilly Endowment.

Ben Tapper (01:44):
In this week's episode, Matt and I have a conversation with Victoria Sun Esparza, who is a premier thought leader in the concept of human centered design, especially as it relates to faith communities. And Matt, I don't know about you, but I found the conversation incredibly refreshing. Not only because of who Victoria is and how she shows up, but at the concept of applying human centered design, which is centered in story really. And you know me, I love story. Applying that to congregational life, it seemed like it is right for innovation in communities. 

Matt Burke (02:15):
Yeah. I mean human centered design is something that's out there in the for-profit world. And she mentioned some resources and places to look to get an introduction to it. But her heart is really in how it applies to congregations. And I think listeners will be encouraged by the conversation about how human centered design works and how it can be transformational, and just how it can build relationships at a very basic level.

Ben Tapper (02:37):
Yeah, I think listeners will also appreciate Victoria's narrative about how she came to this marriage of human centered design in faith communities. That was a powerful moment in the interview, and one that I found very relatable and I'm sure others listening will find relatable as well. 

Matt Burke (02:52):
Yeah. I love the story of how she came up with her organization's name. And something else I think is really interesting about this, one of the center's values is whole congregation engagement. That you can get a single leader or a pastor to read a book or attend a conference, but it can be really hard to implement change when only one person is really involved in that. And what she's talking about, human centered design and the processes and procedures of it really try to push for a very high level of involvement in a lot of different parties. And to us as the center, that's really exciting because we believe in that as well. 

Ben Tapper (03:28):
Yeah, absolutely. I think it aligns incredibly well with what we believe in and what we hope we can help congregations accomplish. Personally, I appreciated how this concept and the work that Victoria is doing pushes back at an institutional focus and brings the focus back to people, right? I think anyone that has spent a significant amount of time in a faith-based community, or even honestly in a family setting sometimes. But specifically a faith-based community, you've experienced this tension of feeling like, "Wait a minute, are we doing this for the sake of the institution or for the sake of the people involved?" So I love that this concept, this work brings us back to that question and helps bring us back to the people. Honestly, I left it feeling kind of hopeful, which I don't often feel when it comes to faith based communities, you know? So that was kind of refreshing for me. 

Matt Burke (04:17):
Yeah. In the Christian faith tradition, the word church as it's translated from the scriptures, actually the word church comes from a term meaning house of God. But that's actually what's not found in the original language. And the original language of the New Testament and even the Hebrew of the Jewish scriptures really talks about more the people who have gathered. And congregation is really more of an apt understanding, like those who have congregated as opposed to the house of God. And I think this points to that idea of a rediscovery of the fact that the community is about the people who are gathered, not about the processes, and the procedures, and the facilities. Of course those things are important. I'm not downplaying that. But at the end of the day, it's the relationships and the humanity, and the gathering of the people involved that really is the heart of what a congregation is. So I think human centered design focuses more on that than ways that we currently think about strategy, or planning, or change in congregations.


Ben Tapper (05:16):
Yes. Come on Professor Burke. Teach us. Teach us. Yeah, no that's spot on. This idea about coming back to the gathering. That's the heart of what we're all seeking in community faith-based or otherwise. 

Matt Burke (05:30):
All right. So with all of that said, please enjoy our interview with Victoria Sun Esparza

All right. So with us today for this interview is Victoria Sun Esparza. She is the founder and CEO of In the Water Design, which is a consulting firm that specializes in design thinking strategy for religious organizations and nonprofits. Thanks for being here, Victoria.

Victoria Sun Esparza (06:06):
I am excited to be with you today.

Matt Burke (06:08):
We're excited to have you, and excited about the topic for today. We came across this topic gosh, I don't know, maybe about a year ago. And then when I joined the spiritual entrepreneurship course, you taught a segment of that course on human centered design. And I think a lot of the folks listening probably have not heard of that before. So I think we would love to start with what is human centered design?

Victoria Sun Esparza (06:27):
Absolutely. So human centered design goes by a lot of different names. So often it's human centered design, or design thinking. But human centered design is an interdisciplinary methodology that aims to solve tough problems by starting with the people who actually experience the problem as the experts. And really, human centered design is very well known within for-profit settings, particularly in the tech industry. Thinking about the ways that people use technology, or devices, or even services. And a lot of people in those industries are very familiar with this. In fact, pretty much every single piece of technology that we own has been touched in some way through this process. 

And really, it helps us think about how do we think about empathy, starting with the user. And then moving into prototyping and kind of building on our ideas as a place of saying how do we grow from where we are?

Matt Burke (07:16):
And is that somewhat similar to some fields that I used to be involved in? We talked about user experience and user interface. And granted, that was usually kind of technology related in websites and things like that. Is it similar to that?

Victoria Sun Esparza (07:28):
Yeah. So user experience, UX, or user interface which is UI, all kinds of stem from this idea that the user or the consumer is the most important place to start. And human centered design is wrapped up in all of that. And there are lots of strategies and ways that you kind of pull on different disciplines to basically say how do we better understand what people need and want right now? And for me, I really think that this is an area that the church and that faith communities really can grow. Because in many ways that this kind of setting has been really successful in building for-profit industries that a lot of our technology, a lot of our goods and services are being run through these processes. Millions, billions of dollars are being spent on these areas in many areas that touch our lives. But most churches and most faith leaders have never heard of this process.

And to me, that seems like such a huge problem because I think that pastors, I think that faith leaders are really good at developing empathy about understanding people better. But we haven't been equipped with the tools to basically move through a problem solving process. And that's what human centered design offers is that it says how do we start with a person who's experiencing a problem, better understand what their needs and desires are, even if they can't articulate them? And then use those new discoveries to generate new ideas.

And part of the value of doing this is that you're constantly asking the question of what do we need to let go of? What do we need to rebuild? How do we take this back to people and get constant feedback? And applying this in the context of religious communities and faith communities, I think can be really transformative. And I've seen it be transformative because of the way that it can influence how we think about new ideas and innovative process.

Ben Tapper (08:59):
So you're encouraging churches and congregations to actively think about what we need to let go of. That feels like a tall order.

Victoria Sun Esparza (09:06):
Absolutely. It is a tall order, but I think part of what happens, and this is what I talk a lot about when I am consulting and when I'm working with groups is that when you can build deep enough empathy for the people experience the problem, it actually becomes a lot easier to let go of those things. That often the things that we're holding onto, we're holding onto for personal reasons or reasons that are ours, which aren't bad. But when we start to open up and realize wow, my personal reason is smaller in some way than the significant reason that my community is saying that we really need this. And part of the way that we can let go of some of those things is by developing empathy for our users, by developing empathy for our communities, and really spending time being human centered in the process of trying to discover new things.

Matt Burke (09:47):
Yeah. So let's kind of dive down into some specifics. What is maybe one particular use case that you have seen where human centered design was really applicable and worked really well in a congregation?

Victoria Sun Esparza (09:58):
Yeah. Yeah. So I worked with a couple of congregations in the past, and I also do a lot of curriculum development. So working with leadership organizations to help them think about new strategies and training up new leaders. And one of the areas that specifically an example that I can give is I worked with a congregation in the past who has spent a lot of time thinking about how do we use our building better, which I think is a question a lot of people have spent time thinking about. As congregations are a little bit smaller and our buildings are expensive, we have to be kind of trading off how we use the space. 

And one of the things that the congregation had been talking about was that they really wanted more young families to be attending their church. So we took some time, we said okay, how do we kind of talk to the families that are present? And maybe even see if we can reach out some of their friends, kind of starting with this research perspective. How do we spend time understanding what your life is like, what keeps you coming to church? What does a Sunday morning look like for you?

And so one of the things that came up pretty quickly was that the family said, "I have young kids, and we really struggle with knowing if it's okay to bring our crying kids to church, because we're not sure if there's actually space for us. And we don't want to be disruptive, but we're concerned about, and our kid comes in a stroller and all these things." And this particular church didn't have very much space for a nursery or a backroom for parents to go if they wanted to take their crying child. So it often meant they would just leave the service altogether. 

So one of the things that came up was, "Well how do we make our place more hospitable for these families? Because we want them here." Somebody suggested, "Well, what if we took out two or three pews in the back of the church?" And immediately, immediately, the small team we were working with, about half of them that were much older were absolutely not. "We're not taking out the pews. We're not doing that. How can we possibly think about taking out pews? How could you do that? These have been here since I was born," blah, blah, blah. The usual we're holding onto our stuff. 

And it took us a little bit of time. But ultimately, we were able to get to this place of saying okay, what if we let go of some of the things that we've been holding onto and say what if we imagined a different possibility? Maybe we took out the pews and we just left it empty for there to be strollers, or what if we put in comfortable chairs or parents could sit in the back? And we ended up kind of brainstorming some ideas saying let's just see. We don't have to take out the pews, but let's brainstorm some ideas about how we could better use this space. 

And then ultimately start prototyping those ideas. What does it mean for us to maybe put chairs in the aisle and see how that feels? Or create a little bit of space in the corner and see how that feels for families. And ultimately, what this church ended up deciding to do was they didn't remove three pews. They only removed one pew. But they did end up removing a pew, and they kept the pew, and they put it somewhere else in the building.

And I think that this is a really small example of well yeah, anybody can take out a pew. But the difference with just doing something and starting from a human centered kind of position and moving through the process is to say that the stories that people are telling are ultimately the places that we start to better understand. That we use that as the starting place for information. And in this particular context, it was young families saying we don't have a place for our strollers, and we don't have a place to sit with our kids when they're crying. So thinking about as a church, how do we let go of maybe some of the things we've been holding on to, to open up the possibility that we could be more inclusive, that we can be inviting more people in through this difficult process of really listening and asking those questions, and seeking to understand a little bit better.


Matt Burke (12:56):
So in that example, and it sounds like one of the starting places is just having the right information or data. And I can imagine how any organization, including congregations that leadership make decisions based on what they think might be the case or what they imagine might be solutions to a problem. But this sounds like the very first stepping stone is understanding what people need or understanding what questions or what challenges they're encountering. So how would you encourage congregations to make space and start there?


Victoria Sun Esparza (13:27):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great point. I would say human centered design is ultimately about how do we gather stories and information from people who are really experiencing the problem. And I kind of compare this to the way that we have lots of committee meetings. We have lots of board meetings and committees that sit around a table and say, "Okay, what are we doing next?" And there's something that's helpful about that because often those committees are made up of people from our congregation, but they often also don't represent necessarily the fullness of our congregation. So we have people sitting in rooms making decisions or guessing in a lot of ways about what other people need without ever going to talk to them. And that for me is the big no-no that I think our churches have fallen into. That we kind of put ourselves in this feedback loop, because we have the same 10, 15, 20, maybe 30 people telling us what we should be doing next. And human centered design says what if we asked the people who showed up once to church, what their experience was, or we would ask the person who's never set foot in our building, what their experience is of a Sunday morning? And really asking who are the people that are not here, and how do we understand their experiences better? 

And really the main way that I support congregations in doing this work is how do we conduct interviews? That's the really easy place to start that are really focused on listening and not offering advice or trying to solve problems. Pastors tend to find themselves and faith leaders tend to find themselves in positions where they are counseling in these situations. They're maybe learning things, but they're also trying to do pastoral care. And that's great, but there's a difference between I'm here to learn and listen to you, and I'm here to be your pastor and pastoral care.

And part of what's really helpful is this listening is an opportunity for us to ask a lot of questions to dig deeper. That when somebody tells a story, that you don't just follow it up with your own personal story, but that you say something like, "Can you tell me more about that? Or what was that experience like for your kids who were with you? Or how did your family feel when you made that decision? Or what was that like with your friendships?" And really digging past the surface level, because people love to talk about themselves. And when we give them an opportunity to do that, they're actually willing to open up a lot. So really pushing congregations to build a culture in which they ask those kinds of questions, in which they dig a little bit deeper so that they can understand a little bit more.

Ben Tapper (15:30):
I'm wondering, you seem to live at the intersection of two different fields or vocations even. You've got this human side of design consulting work, and then you have your faith-based kind of ministry call that you're living into. And I imagine that at some point, you were captivated by the combination of both of them. So is there an anecdote, or a story, or a moment that you can look back on and say, "Yeah, that's when this grabbed my heart and put me on this path"?

Victoria Sun Esparza (15:56):
Yeah. So I would have to say that I am not a person who likes institutions. That I tend to be pretty resistant to them because I think that in many ways, while they exist for really good reasons, they tend to fall pretty short. So I have a master's divinity, and I also have masters of arts and design innovation. And I got them both relatively around the same time. And for me, I kind of went to seminary because I'd had a pretty painful deconstruction of my faith. I grew up pretty conservative and evangelical, and in college really left that faith. And seminary was a place for me to kind of put that back together. And I really have no intentions of ever working in a church. 

But while I was there, I stumbled into learning about design thinking and pretty quickly looked around. And after a brief internet search realized that literally nobody in faith-based scenarios were talking about this method. So I bothered the program director, and she let me join the program to start this other master's program while I was still a seminary student. And it really was for me that first year of discovering A, this is something that pastors theoretically should be very good at. That this process requires a lot of empathy around a lot of listening, things that are very people oriented that pastors could be really good at. But B, it fundamentally challenges the notion that our institutions have the answer. That the people who are running the ship are the people who know what's going on. 

And really in the moment for me where I realized my call to kind of at this intersection, is I had a pretty frustrating moment. It was at a time where I was working with a small group of students. And there had been some choices that were made after I had reported a series of abuses that were not taken as seriously as I would hope they'd been. And a lot of that had to do with who the parents were, and the situation we were in. And as many of us know, this is a real case thing that happens all the time.

And I was really angry. And I actually very interestingly went to my professor in my design program and I said, "I think that I need to quit. I think I need to not go work in a church because I literally can't do this. I am so frustrated with the choices people are making. I love these students. I've seen this happen multiple times. And I just simply cannot get ordained, I simply cannot work in an institution that supports these kinds of things because I'm part of a problem. And I just want to go be a designer."

And my professor said, she was not a person of faith at all. "I understand what you're saying and I understand, but innovation happens on the edge of anything." And she said, "If you think about people who have made great strides in technology, or medicine, or anything in the world, it's because they are experts in the field, but they are just on the edge enough of it to ask the deep questions that nobody else is willing to ask." And she said, "I'm not going to tell you what to do. I think you could be a great designer and you could leave this field and go do whatever you want. But I do think that you have an expertise that nobody else has and the potential to shape things in a way nobody else has."

And I very frustratingly left that meeting, very upset, because I knew she was exactly right. And for me, that was really the beginning of where my consulting business started was that I realized I have this wealth of knowledge. I've grown up in churches. I've worked in multiple denominations. I have friends that are of different faiths. And I have this insight that a traditional designer who just has a design background couldn't possibly make these kinds of inroads. That I can kind of translate what human centered design means in a theological setting. And that kind of puts me responsible for something that I don't want to be responsible for. Because I realize that I can do something that others can't. And for me, that was really where my business started. And I actually named my business In the Water Designs, because I often think of institutions as these big cruise ships that were kind of running these systems, that they're taking care of people in some ways. They're also really flawed. And sometimes they get so big, that it becomes really difficult for us to turn around or change course. And we often sometimes have so many people on the boat, that we forget about people. 

And my big problem with that is that what happens is either people are pushed off the boat, or they jump off the boat. And I believe that the future of faith and the future of our spirituality is in the water. And that whatever it means to believe, whatever it means for us to be connected to one another is off in the horizon. And the ships may get there eventually, but there are people who are in the water who need our help right now. And human centered design is positioned to say that your stories are most important, and we care about them. And we want to understand what it means to provide something meaningful to you also. And I find myself often that place where I belong in the water. So I'm with other people in the water working to say what does it mean to build something new.

Ben Tapper (20:24):
Thank you for sharing that perspective and background. That's really powerful. I do have some questions about your experience on cruise ships though, but that might be for a later podcast. Got some follow ups we can do later. But I love the imagery of in the water. The way you described it makes perfect sense. But also I appreciate this scriptural and biblical imagery that comes to mind of being in the water, especially as a leader or a shepherd. I imagine that that connects deeply with a lot of clergy and lay leaders as well. So I wanted to affirm the power in your narrative, and just appreciate you sharing that with us today. 

We're obviously in the midst of a global pandemic. This isn't news to anybody at this point. We've seen on our end, a lot of congregations have to do some really innovative things. Simply because the way that church or their religious life of their communities were run before just was no longer feasible. So they've had to innovate. But I'm wondering what you've witnessed on your end with people you're connected to or congregations you're working with, and how human centered design may have been able to help congregations make some of the adjustments they're having to make on the fly.

Victoria Sun Esparza (21:24):
Yeah. So one of the big things that I've seen is that suddenly, churches care a lot more about what people's day-to-day life looks like. And that seems really small, but I think that that is a huge disconnect with the realities of way faith operates in our world right now. That congregations tend to not care about who's picking kids up from school, what time, what time we're setting events at, all those kinds of things. And suddenly there's a hyper-awareness to if we want adults to show up, then it needs to be after bedtime. So you need to have late night events, bu. Be would have never considered that if we were in a building because nobody wants to be there at 8:00.

My hope is that that sticks around long after coronavirus has gone, because that hyper-awareness I think has actually created a better connection to the people in our communities. That we're being more sensitive to the realities that most people have children. And especially if you have small children at home, this has been a really tough, and that you're barely able to take care of your kids and work. So we're going to give you a lot more grace when it comes to whether you're showing up for our worship service or not. I think we're being a lot more sensitive to what do people actually really need and want right now? I think particularly with the past couple of months and this call for really talking about racial inequality, I think congregations have been a lot more sensitive to wow, we need to do better at this. And how do we ask deeper questions or provide content and curriculum that helps people think through these processes? And I think that there's been just more attention to what's going on in the world, as opposed to saying, "Well if you want to show up, then you need to make time for us." Which is often the thing that I hear is that if this was really important to you, then you would be here.

And I just don't think that's true or fair to especially families. One of the things that's been really encouraging to me is watching the ways that churches, even churches that I would say generally don't care about those kinds of things, have really changed in that way. That they have asked questions like should our Sunday morning service be at this time? Should we have an early morning Bible study? Should we have a late night Bible study? Let's take a poll of when people are available. Just small things like that about getting feedback. That feedback loop is basically non-existent, I would say in most settings normally. We generally don't take the time to say is this a good time working for you? Is this still working for you? We don't check in, and we've needed to do that lately because things have changed so much.

So I would say that attention just to people's lives and their routines can be really significant, and something that I hope will carry on past COVID. Because it can really shape the way that people feel seen and connected to rather than kind of burdening them by saying, "You're bad for not being here, or it's your fault that you can't show up." That's just not true. And I think that there's been a lot of really great movement to say that we care, and we're going to make space for you no matter where you are in your life.

Matt Burke (23:57):
That makes so much sense. And it makes me think of a number of things. But one of the initial thoughts that I had were it seems like the larger the congregation, the more challenging this might be. And an encouragement to smaller congregations listening to this conversation, that you have a great opportunity because you could talk to a very large percentage of your congregation to understand their experiences, their life experiences, their challenges, what's happening in their lives. There's a much better opportunity there than maybe in a large congregation where it would take surveys, and focus groups, and all kinds of things like that. 

And it also makes me think of when you live in something constantly that is available to other people, but they're not living in it constantly. There's a very different understanding of the value of it. And I'll make it more concrete. I was just thinking about us as an organization. That we live, eat, and breathe Center for Congregations, and sometimes wonder why more people aren't reaching out to us, but it's because that's what we're doing all day every day. And this idea of human centered design changes that dynamic of stop thinking that what you're doing is so important. You're trying to serve others. So therefore, pay attention to where they are and what challenges and opportunities they're facing. Because that's where the intersection is. So if you really want to get into people's lives, it's important to understand what those lives consist of and what their weeks look like. And when you're a full-time staff person at a large congregation, you have a very different experience of the church and of life rhythms than someone who has a completely different set of priorities just based on their vocation and their family.

Victoria Sun Esparza (25:32):
Absolutely. And I think Matt, you're touching on something that I talk about often, which is talking about the ways that our bias can influence and in often in many ways hinder innovation and new ideas. This is part of what I talk about when I do workshops is that I talk about bias is not something that's necessarily inherently bad. But the reality is there is no amount of work that we can do to rid ourselves 100% of our bias. We each have a very unique upbringing. We each have a different kind of ethnic background. We each have different experiences in our life. We've had different experiences with church and faith. And because of that, we can't ever just rid ourselves of that perspective.

So part of what's really important is us acknowledging our limitations and being able to say, "I have no idea what it's like to be a parent who works 40 hours a week, has three children at home, and has a spouse that also works full time, in the midst of COVID." So what we have to be able to say is, "I don't know what that experience is like, so I'm not going to try to guess. I'm actually just going to go talk to somebody." And I think that big churches and small churches actually can do this equally as well, that it takes the time. It takes equally amount the same amount of time to spend getting to know a person in that place. And I think that as we spend more time asking those questions and talking to people, the more clear it becomes areas that you can't speak to.

And I think that as we grow, and I kind of argue that everyone is a designer. And as we grow as designers, we can better understand here are the places that I can speak to. and here are the places that I can't. And who can I go talk to for the places that I can't?

I think that with big churches, there are kind of pros and cons, right? Of being a big church and a small church. And I would say big churches definitely have it on their side that you have more people available to you to survey. So if you reach out to 10 people, the odds are that half of them will say yes. But in a small church, if you reach out to 10 people, maybe a few of them won't say yes. So there's challenges, and you can kind of get a larger scale if you're in a bigger church. But I would say in small churches, it is easier because you tend to have more intimate relationships with your congregants, and you can draw on those deeper conversations. 

So I think that there are challenges in both settings, but I don't think that the size of your church limits how much you can do, especially when it comes to learning about the people who show up and attend. It really just says it's really about are you willing to make the time as a staff member, as a leader in the space to really invest and really hear those stories to challenge your own bias and the bias of the people around you? That sometimes you don't know until you're sitting with that person you're realizing. That never occurred to me, I would have never thought about that. And that is an example of the ways that our bias keeps us from knowing and why it's important to talk to people about those things.

Ben Tapper (28:01):
Have you noticed any difference in the way that human centered design needs to be applied or approached in a congregation based upon their racial or ethnic makeup or background? I know that in a lot of our congregations and some traditionally African-American or Black denominations or congregations, leadership can function differently than it might in a white mainline congregation or in a rural white congregation. There's big differences sometimes between urban congregations and rural congregations, or English speaking and Spanish speaking, or Chin speaking congregations. Have you noticed any differences in the ways that this concept, this consulting needs to be applied or plays out based upon some of those differences?

Victoria Sun Esparza (28:37):
Yeah. I think that each congregation has their own culture, right? And some of that is influenced by the racial demographic of the congregation. And some of that is just like you said, where you are rural, being urban, those kinds of things. And I think that what's really important is to recognize the ways that your culture supports and maybe impedes innovation processes. And that can be anything from like we're a really collective community that wants to make lots of decisions together. And that might be really helpful. But you also might be a congregation that is very risk adverse. Maybe that's because of cultural experiences, maybe that's because of financial experiences, which are often tied to both the things that we've talked about. And I think that recognizing your limitations and being able to say okay, like how can we acknowledge the places that our culture supports us and acknowledge also the places that we might feel more challenged in this process?

I want to speak particularly to the ways that risk kind of comes up in the process, because human centered design ultimately about how do we better understand people? How do we then take those insights to say, "We've discovered something new about this problem that maybe we didn't see." And then how do we prototype ideas? Which is to say that we don't spend $10,000 investing in something that we have no idea if it's going to work. 

And I talk to people a lot about how do we do low fidelity or low resolution prototypes. Which is to say that we don't need to spend lots of money, but how do we convey the idea with the least amount of money, quickly, efficiently? I also think that lots of congregations that are not white and that are not wealthy really have a hard time taking risks, because they often are criticized more deeply by the institutions that support them. And I think that's very true, and I've seen it happen.

So one of the things that you have to do really well is especially if you kind of fall into that group, is you have to be able to talk about the process that you've gone through, and why you've taken those risks, and what you've learned from them. And I think it's unfair because I don't think a lot of white congregations and wealthy congregations have to do the same kind of work. But I think that it can be really helpful. And ultimately it's to your benefit to get really good at storytelling and talking about the process that you've gone through of, "Hey, we learned this from this family. And it really changed our perspective. So then we started seeking after B instead of A." And in the process of B, we tried these five things, and only one of them worked. But here's what we learned from the other four."

And when we can lay it out like that. It actually really helps build this rapport of not just we're wasting time and money, but we're actually learning and developing deeper relationships. So I think to that degree, there is difference in the ways that congregations are in my opinion, held accountable for the ways that they spend their time and money. That I think are very much influenced by culture, by race, where you're located. But I do think that there's an opportunity to be able to apply this work regardless of your setting, if you are able to kind of take the time to ask those deep questions and be really good at recognizing where people are going to kind of poke at you a little bit more, even if it's unfair.

Matt Burke (31:24):
Yeah. And it sounds like even at a very basic level, this work engenders relationship. So at the end of the day, the worst thing that can happen is you have conversations and understand each other better. And the best that can happen is you can make really dramatic changes that really enhance the life of your community and your congregation. That's a really cool premise to the whole design.

Victoria Sun Esparza (31:46):
Yeah. And I think that's part of what makes human centered design really interesting when it's applied in for-profit context is that it really is about relationships. It's really about how do we build relationships? How do we understand people better? How do we get to, I talk a lot about qualitative data instead of quantitative data. How do we value that? And I think congregations could do this really well. I think that we already kind of operate in this way that when we're discussing what sermon series we want to do next, we're often telling stories about well, we've seen these things show up in our congregation. Maybe we should talk about these things. Or we're going to start a new program. So we've heard a lot of people talk about X. And really human center design says okay, let's take that process and be intentional about it. Let's really spend time saying this is the problem we're trying to solve. We're trying to understand people better and develop those relationships intentionally. And really using empathy as the core of caring about what's going on, and trying to better understand who our people are, and ultimately how they're changing over time. Because no congregation is static, and human centered design says that's normal and okay. So how do we create a system in which we kind of get feedback constantly about what's working, what's not working, and what needs to change?

Matt Burke (32:52):
So as we get close to ending our time Victoria, where can folks learn a little bit more about the basics of human centered design so that they can get a better understanding of how this might apply to their setting?

Victoria Sun Esparza (33:04):
Yeah. So like I said earlier, there's not a lot of work right now that's at the intersection of faith-based communities and human centered design. So if you're looking for that specifically, it really doesn't exist yet. My hope is that in the next 10 years, it will. But I would say if you're really interested in just learning about the process, one of my favorite books to recommend is called Creative Confidence. And there is a very large consulting firm that is tied to Stanford d.school called IDEO. And they basically do human centered design both in for-profit settings, and then also in nonprofit settings. So largely in other countries, they work with how do we use this method to help developing countries?

And they have a fantastic book that kind of walks through the process, some really fantastic examples. And then I really like the book because at the very end, there's 10 exercises for you to build your creative competence. And the reason they talk about creative competence is because it's this opportunity for us to say how do we trust ourselves to build new ideas? We input stories as information. 

So I love that book. There are some really great TED Talks from the folks at IDEO. And they kind of have a big market because they were one of the first really large firms who've done this. So they have a lot of really great workout. So I would say if you're interested in this, going poking around their website, it has some great blogs and great articles. So there's a couple of other really great resources. If you're interested in actually doing this work, there is a workbook out that's called The Design Kit that's put out by IDEO, their university side. And it has some really fantastic practical tools for the process of understanding your context better, redefining the problem, and then prototyping your ideas. And the book is kind of set into those three segments. It's only $30. And I think you can also download a free PDF. So if you're interested in it, it's a really great place to start of just saying what are people using to do this work. And some of those content is a little bit more for for-profit settings, which is the challenge. But there are some really helpful things there, especially at the beginning of that research phase of saying how do we better understand people more? 

Matt Burke (34:53):
Great. 

Ben Tapper (34:54):
So as we mentioned offline, as we were kicking off the podcast, you are now basically a national thought leader. So if people want to learn more about you, follow what you're doing and your work, how can they do that?

Matt Burke (35:08):
Well, I was just going to give her phone number. I mean, sounds like she's kind of the top expert on congregations and human centered design. So you can call Victoria at 972 ... just kidding.

Victoria Sun Esparza (35:20):
My number does start with 972.

Matt Burke (35:20):
I thought I was being random. Wow, my brain actually remembered that. So anyway, sorry Victoria. Please tell us where people can find you and your work.

Victoria Sun Esparza (35:28):
So you can find my work at inthewater.co. And that's really the best place to contact me. My email is there, so you can email me. But that's best place to contact me. And there's some more information about the work that I do and a little bit about my background. And then I have an Instagram that is not very well built out, but it exists. If you want to message me on there too, which is in the water with two underscores at the end. 

Matt Burke (35:49):
All right. Thank you. And yeah, my Instagram, people continue to start following me and I don't know why. Because I post. I don't even know how they find me. So you're in good company with them.

Victoria Sun Esparza (36:01):
Excellent. Excellent. Awesome. It was great talking with you both today. Thanks for having me.

Ben Tapper (36:01):
Likewise.

Matt Burke (36:36):
Thank you so much.

All right, welcome back to the resources section. Ben, what do you have for today? 

Ben Tapper (36:39):
I have what has become a fan favorite resource at the Center for Congregations. They are called ULEAD Cards. That is the letter U lead. Now at first glance, it may not quite seem like this is fully in line with the concept of human centered design. But remember, human centered design is about storytelling and about connecting with the people you're trying to serve. And ULEAD Cards help you do that. They're really great especially for staff development or team trainings. You can gather a group of lay leaders or clergy together, and go through this card deck. And it will help you get to know the people that you're leading with. And I think it's crucial to do that. Because if you don't know the people that you're leading with day in and day out, then how can you hope to get to know the people that you're trying to serve?

So I think this idea of storytelling and getting to know people has to start with the leadership teams, and then you can begin to practice it, and thus human centered design with the congregation or the people in your community. So that's why I think these ULEAD Cards are a great place to start.

Matt Burke (37:34):
Yeah, the ULEAD Cards are super fun. And Ben, you may not know this, but they're actually developing a digital version of that. On their website, they'll have a digital version. So as we are all properly socially distanced and can't hand playing cards to one another, there'll be an opportunity to use those. That's awesome. Yeah, those are great. They come with instructions. So even if you don't know a ton about facilitation, they've actually got instructions with them and some ways to utilize them. But also, there's a lot of opportunity for creativity.

Ben Tapper (38:01):
That's one of the reasons I love them, and I'm excited that they're making a digital version. I didn't know that. What do you got for us?

Matt Burke (38:06):
So the first resource I'm bringing today is The World Cafe. The World Cafe is something that the center has been a big fan of for quite a while. There's a book that delineates the process and talks you through it, but there's also a website. And this is basically a whole process of whole system collaboration. And one of the things that we talked about in the human centered design conversation is bringing everybody to the table, really talking to people, creating relationships, and understanding other people's experiences. And The World Cafe I think is one great way to do that. So again, it's a process that you can do, you can implement as kind of a large group gathering in your congregation. It would be something that would be amenable probably to a Zoom environment. You might have to get a little technical with it with some breakouts and things like that, but there's definite possibility there. But also once the pandemic passes and we can gather together in person. But just a great opportunity to come together for a day to chat in small groups at tables to drive change and bring up new ideas, some creativity. Just a really, really interesting opportunity. 

And the center, as we talked about before I think in other podcasts, we're just big fans of trying to get as much of your congregation involved in planning processes, strategic planning and things like that. Because usually the more people you have involved, the more buy-in you get. And the more people feel heard and the more momentum that you can gather from it.

Ben Tapper (39:22):
Yeah. And I've had the gift of being able to participate in World Cafe gatherings before. We did it in an adult Sunday school or an all church Sunday school at the church I used to attend. And what's really cool about it is that you genuinely get to know or see different parts of the people that you're in conversation with, and you get to learn what it means to dialogue and to just hold space for people. And I really think that that's a useful skill, especially as we're talking about human centered design. But really just generally for community building at large. So that's one of the reasons that I have appreciated my interactions with World Cafe as well. So that's a great resource. 

Matt Burke (39:56):
Cool. Thanks for sharing that, man. 

Ben Tapper (39:57):
Yeah.

Matt Burke (39:58):
What else you got? 

Ben Tapper (39:58):
Yeah. I have a video that can be found on YouTube, or wherever you find your videos, but most likely YouTube. And it is called DevExplains Human Centered Design. And I really like this video because it starts out first of all, just breaking down the concept the broad term human centered design in somewhat layman's speak. So if you haven't wrapped your mind around the concept up until that point, I think the first 30 seconds, the first minute help you do that. 

Now moving on, the rest of the video can have some technical jargon. But if you are in congregation with or someone on your leadership team has experience in professional development world or the corporate world, this might be a good resource for them to help you access. And you might be able to tie in some of their previous skillsets and utilize it as they work with you to figure out what it means to not only understand, but to begin to implement and walk through the human centered design process. And the video does a good job of laying out what the process is, or at least the first few steps of it. So you can kind of wrap your mind around what it might look like for your community to do that work. And for those that don't know, Devex is the kind of global media platform for development and nonprofit professionals. So if you're looking to network or keep up to date on what's going on in the NGO world or the development world, Devex is a great place to start. And they've got this video series called DevExplains.

Matt Burke (41:16):
Yeah, thanks for that Ben. And a lot of times, we do find resources that are founded in the business world or founded in the nonprofit space. But so much of that information is translatable. And we just believe in finding good information from all kinds of areas. But again, just having somebody alongside you to help you translate that might be beneficial.

Ben Tapper (41:34):
All right. So you have another one for us, Matt?

Matt Burke (41:36):
Yes. So as I was doing some research on this topic, I came across a TED Talk by a guy named David Kelley. And there is a TED Talk on human centered design that he delivered, but I actually gravitated more towards one he did in 2012 called How to build your creative confidence. And he's actually the co-author of a book called Creative Confidence. And it's just a really cool video, because it's very winsome in terms of storytelling. He connects with you as a person on the front end about how we are trained at an early age that creativity is not for all of us. And he says that's just not true. So just trying to bring creativity back into all spaces and just invoke creativity in everyone who's involved in a system or in a congregation. He's not specifically talking to congregations, but the idea still stands.

And it's only about an 11 minute video. It's a good watch. And if you're not familiar with TED Talks by the way, you should check those out. They are just different speakers, usually anywhere between nine and 15, 20 minutes. And there are transcripts available. So if you don't like watching videos, but you like the information, you can just scroll through the transcripts. But I just think this might be something interesting to do with a leadership team, with a board, with a group of small group leaders. Just really any kind of group in your congregation, just watching it and trying to get some permission to be creative and to experiment with thinking about ways to make changes in your congregation, ways to move forward, or ways to just grapple with all the change that we're dealing with in society right now.

Ben Tapper (43:00):
Thank you for bringing that Matt. That resource sounds excellent. I was able to hear the initial story of that Ted TAlk, the story that David Kelley starts out with. And I've got to say if you just need a good cry, listen to the first minute, minute and a half. It'll be a tear-jerker, it'll get you there.

Matt Burke (43:16):
And who doesn't need a good cry from time to time?

Ben Tapper (43:19):
That's right. We all do. We all do. I really want to say one final thing is that I appreciate the resources that we were able to bring. Because I think sometimes for congregations or maybe just for congregational leaders, when you are trying to incorporate an idea or concept that isn't always familiar to you, it can feel uncomfortable and sometimes a bit intimidating to figure out what it means to adapt that to congregational life. But if you listen to the conversation and also check out some of these resources that we brought today, I think together, they'll help you to wrap your mind around this broad term of human centered design, and begin to take the steps you need to figure out what it means to apply it to your congregation and your community.

Matt Burke (43:57):
Yeah. And remember that researching resources, that's what we do. It is an absolute core element of the Center for Congregations. So if you want help with specific resources or a specific issue or challenge you have, reach out to us. You can hit us up at podcast@centerforcongregations.org, or check out our website to find the office nearest you. But this is our bread and butter. It's what we do all the time. And we would love to do customized particular research for your congregation.

Well, thanks for listening to this episode of the Center for Congregations Podcast. We just thought that in December, as we're thinking about 2021 coming up, it would be good to have something that might get you thinking about planning, and especially planning creatively. As we're still wrestling with all kinds of changes and challenges from 2020, we thought this would be a good episode to try to get you ready and thinking about creativity for next year.

Ben Tapper (44:42):
And in that spirit, we're going to keep the theme of storytelling moving into this next episode. So the final episode of season one of this podcast will come out in a couple of weeks. And that is going to feature stories that we have collected as the Center for Congregations, from congregations all across the state of Indiana, as we've been working with them. So you're going to hear from different people in our organization. Our Southwest director, our Northeast director. And once again, the president of our organization. And they're going to share uplifting, inspiring, or touching congregational stories that they've encountered. So we're ending that way as a way to cap season one, as a way to cap 2020. And hopefully, help you prepare to think about what it means to connect more deeply into the coming year with your congregation and with your community.

Matt Burke (45:27):
So don't forget to rate and review us on iTunes. We would love a five star rating if you think we deserve it. That's also one of the best ways that you can help others find the podcast. It'll help with the metrics and the algorithms so that other people will see it. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram, where we share stories and other resources. And you can actually reach out to us at podcast@centerforcongregations.org. So if you have a question about resources, if you have a thought for maybe a future episode or something you'd like to hear about, we would absolutely love to hear from you. So please reach out. 

Ben Tapper (45:55):
Yeah. And actually in that vein, we have been playing with the idea of doing a mini episode, where we answer questions you have about resources and potentially do some resource consulting. So if you'd like to push us in the direction of making that short segment a reality, then send us a resource consulting question that we can grapple with. And it might inspire us. You never know. We just want to thank you again for listening to this week's episode of the Center for Congregations Podcast. We hope you found it informational and uplifting. And until next week, I'm Ben Tapper.

Matt Burke (46:25):
And I'm Matt Burke.

About the Guest

Contributor
Victoria Sun Esparza

Victoria Sun Esparza is the founder and CEO for In the Water Designs, a consulting firm that specializes in design-thinking strategy for religious organizations and non-profits. Her work lies at the unique intersection of spiritual community and innovation. 
 

The Hosts

Contributor
Ben Tapper

Ben Tapper is an associate for resource consulting with the Center for Congregations. Ben has a passion for communal healing and restoration. He is also a consultant on CRG Chat and helps with social media.  

Contributor
Matt Burke

Matt Burke is the director of the Northeast Center for Congregations in Fort Wayne and serves as the Center’s Education Director statewide. Matt has a background in classroom, digital and experiential education and most recently served as the associate director of Learning Science at Kaplan Test Prep. He is passionate about using education to develop deeper faith in congregational participants.

Matt earned a B.A. in Religion from Mount Vernon Nazarene University and a Masters of Divinity degree from Asbury Theological Seminary. He enjoys spending time with his wife, Kelly, and his two sons, Silas and Levi. Matt also loves storytelling in films, books and music and finding the intersections of faith and popular culture.

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